Retr0's Ban Appeal. (this is BYOND a joke)

[Retr0]

Byond account and character name: Nitr0Del7/ Daud Serkonos, and I dont remember my comms agent name.
Banning admin:Mick1299
Ban type (What are you banned from?): SS13 Server
Ban reason and length: 5 days, Banned for:

Time ban was placed (including time zone):2019/08/07, 11:22:58
Your side of the story: Firstly, let me provide Exhibits:

Exhibit A, I asked the Gentlemen, How I used a Ghost Role to "metagrude", He implies that as playing the Comms Agent, I did not forget my past lives, I ask where is proof of this? I did not play the Ghost Role as the character, Daud Serkonos, The warden, I played a comms agent, and acted accordingly, The role of a comms agent or a syndicate role in general, and the Gentlemen is in agreement with me, is to cause havoc, distrust, and hinder Nanotrasen, its sworn enemy, and the staff members of Nanotrasen, He says I specifically Targeted the RD, who led to my death, Firstly the RD did not lead to my death, The AI, and HoS did, as well as myself. The RD, i suspected was an antag too, I would like to mention, and added a 4th law which made me not, human, if he's a non-antag, then why is he allowed to do this?, and if he's antag and if I was to single him out and target him, it would be valid, whether I knew or not. Anyway, How I really died as Daud Serkonos, Was the AI electrified Doors, as I was trying to make plants in the Perma rec room, I kept getting shocked, I didn't know about the 4th law, so I kept shocking myself because I knew he was on an Asimov lawset, and would use my injuries to get healed at medbay, escape, yadda, yadda, Anyway, I'm put in crit, The kind Security Officer, Morgan, comes and does CPR, and keeps me alive till he gets healing items, I get healed, im up, Clown joins me in Perma, have no idea what he did, buts he's running around, The HoS brought him in personally, and the clowns doing what the clown does, you know, this and that, funny business, He's running around the table in circles, I, being freshly healed, join in, running around, me and the clown come up with a plan to rush the HoS, and free ourselves, doesnt go to plan, HoS, brings out a firearms, shoots us both into crit, Im near death, so im like shit, im dead anyway, I type "ghost" and I die. I'm there dead, for a few minutes, The CMO comes and Defibs me, and I'm like "I swear I put on "Do Not Resuscitate" and I didn't wanna play the former warden in Perma, and I ghosted again and died, and the CMO, let out a hard "sigh" and left, I observed a bit, then decided to go Comms Agent, and to go and use the comms to cause distrust, and havoc on the station. Now here is where I'm the Comms agent, now people on the radio start talking about my previous character, I wait, see what info I can get, see what trouble I can cause, look on the cameras, see where people are, see what I can say, Now as Daud, i had my suspicions that the RD, Edward Archibald, I believe, was an antag, He broke into the Captain's quarters, took the stuff, and then as a "sign of goodwill" gave me a spare ID, which was kinda cool and all, but I had my suspicions (also why is he breaking into the captains quarters as a non-antag? if he is one), anyway, as comms agents, I messaged multiple people, but I knew the HoS was a slow one, as all the RD had to say was, Demote Daud, because he did A, therefore B, for me and the security officer, when I was playing daud, arressting him because we found him with a medical saw with blood on it, and someone claimed he attacked someone, found out that someone attacked him or something, his story checked out, anyway, back to the Comms Agent, I messaged the HoS, as the AI, and I think a few others like the security officer, some assistant, the cook, and the RD, (ill also explain how I didnt target, just the RD, and how it isnt metagruding soon.) and does as a comms agent does, make the HoS think that the RD was changing my laws, because convienetly, he said on general comms "added new law 4" and I used it to my advantage, to better incriminate him as syndie, which the HoS believe, and also to incriminate the AI, Used the RDs, possession of the captains stuff, him giving the nuke disk and spare ID to my previous Character, and his other conflicts with others on the station to paint him as a syndicate by saying "he has captains stuff, think about it, captains stuff is an objective, fought others, causing trouble, instantly framed Daud, he might of been an objective. ( and who is to say I wasn't an objective if he was an antag?) and also painted the Other sec officer and a possible objective. Anyway, I re-logged. Got back on, and well the AI, and others were blurting out "comms agent, possible, comms agent, Couldn't have that, had to distract the AI, as people were asking the AI if they were getting PDA messages and whatnot, so I spammed the AI as multiple people, as I know the AI, cant get rid of a PDA like a human can, and is forced to see those messages, so I'd hope he gets fed up and turn off. I then got bored, the shuttle was coming, and I suicided. and went in ghost chat and said something that was taken out of a context like "nice macro, or imagine if it was a macro", let's get to the other exhibits now,

Exhibit B, The Ban for 3 days, because of using a macro to spam PDA messages, Firstly, that's just ridiculous, you can't use macros to send PDA messages, that's just dumb, all it takes is to put your mouse over the send button, and just click like its cookie clicker, but he says fair enough, spamming is spamming. So then I ask the following:

Now here in Exhibit C, I feel that Mick, is using Rule 0, to give an unfair verdict, if that's how he is "interpreting" it as it says, he might as well say "oh yeah, we don't have a rule about you spamming on a syndicate Comms Agent ghost role, where your job is to cause panic and chaos on the station, But other people didn't like that you were playing a role that causes trouble to the station, so I'm interpreting it as A, and therefore I'm going to ban you because I've interpreted as B, and your gone forever", I feel he is using the vagueness and simplicity of rule 0, to give an unfair judgement. Mick even agrees with me saying that the syndicate ghost role, is for causing havoc to Nanotrasen, and its staff, so why am I being sanctioned, for doing my job?, and as with the "metagruding", The AuStation Metagrude definition, Refers to Metagruding across rounds, not across lives, but that isn't important, my point is, how can I metagrudge someone, when I'm a base in lavaland, and the people, who I apparently am "grudging" against, are on the station. You can say i was singling out people, but that isn't true, I was targeting other people, and causing confusion and distrust on multiple fronts, and even tho the convenience of my Death as Daud, and me happening to pick Comms agent, even if I never played Daud, As Comms Agent, I can target who I please, to fulfil my job and duties as a Comms Agent, Which like Me and Mick are in agreement with, Is to cause havoc on the station.
Let me quote the Ghost Roles Rules, for reference:
"15. Ghost roles Lavaland/ghost roles are NON ANTAG, and any unprovoked kills will be punished. Antag does not carry over, and there is to be absolutely no revenge killing (past lives are forgotten). Ash Walkers are mostly excepted and can murderbone, but all kills must be sacrificed at the nest if possible. Ash Walkers must also NEVER go to the station. Syndicate comms agents/bioweapon scientists are allowed to kill anyone who comes across their base, but must NEVER under any circumstances leave the base. All other lavaland roles are allowed to head to the station if you have the skills to do so."

Now let's break this down a bit, Ghost Roles are NON-ANTAG, Unprovoked kills are punishable, antag does not carry over, and there is no revenge killing, your past lives are forgotten. Now, let's go and focus on the ghost role I played, Which was Syndicate Comms Agent, Am allowed to kill anyone who comes the base, and I cannot leave, under any reason. How am I capable of metagruding if I can't even be in the same space as those whom I am metagruding against? Unprovoked Kills are punishable, but I never killed anyone, My actions, and me doing my job as a Comms Agent, didn't even cause anyone to die, only to cause confusion, the best I did, was probably overwhelm the HoS, by pretending to be the AI, making her think that the RD was a Syndie, AI was rogue, and that captains stuff and the warden and sec officer were objectives. And then they killed themselves (which a certain admin should have checked out a head suiciding), if anything I was a minor annoyance, The shuttle was called soon after I spammed, which probably lasted not even 10 minutes. I used the information said over the radio when I spawned as Comms Agent, What I visually saw on cameras and common sense.

(HAD TO POST IMAGES FOR THE REST OF THE APPEAL IT WENT OVER 10,000 CHARACTERS, DAMN)

 

[Dawson1917]

my eyes feel pain

a numbness in my brain

such a long appeal, what did you hope to gain?

 

[Retr0]

Also to add, with some new information, i shouldn't even be getting in trouble for this, now that i have discovered, that the RD, was a NON-ANTAG, and gets me killed, which i am an NON-ANTAG, he should be the one getting in trouble, not me, He is the one who added the 4th law to allow the AI to harm me, and was the one who lied to the RD about me stealing shit from the armory, when i was trying to clean up for the HoS's arrival, and he then proceeded to lie about it and put me in perma, but it doesn't matter because IN-FACT, the RD was actually THE BANNING ADMIN! Mick1299!!!!, and as matter of fact! The real reason is that he was mad, was that i was spamming as HIM! A REVELATION INDEED! also Dawson, i know you are very slow, and need help reading, but bruh, Follow the ban appeal rules "Only reply to a thread if you were directly involved in the incident."

 

[terra]

As I'm not the banning admin, I won't be providing a decision, but as the host I will provide the objective information that PDA message spam is out of line as a comms agent and actually can be hard on the server itself. Surely it is obvious that this comes under Rule 0, but I will include it in my upcoming rewrite to the rules.

 

[Retr0]

As I'm not the banning admin, I won't be providing a decision, but as the host I will provide the objective information that PDA message spam is out of line as a comms agent and actually can be hard on the server itself. Surely it is obvious that this comes under Rule 0, but I will include it in my upcoming rewrite to the rules.

Appreciate it, i was going to add a suggestion to a rule rework for this, as this is a first time thing, in the suggestions and feedback, you beat me to it

 

[terra]

Also to ensure a prompt response to appeals in the future, try to be more concise in your explanation, this is admittedly hard to read and take in, which will have a negative impact on the time it will take for you to get a response

 

[Retr0]

Also to ensure a prompt response to appeals in the future, try to be more concise in your explanation, this is admittedly hard to read and take in, which will have a negative impact on the time it will take for you to get a response

I had alot to say, and alot that i wanted to say, this was me being as concise as possible, i probably should of taken the time i did with my other appeal, to write it, when probably not frustrated, but i felt that the ban was unfair, and the reasons behind it, were in my opinion, unjust, Mostly the Meta-grudge(reasons why above), and the ban length.

 

[peer]

Thanks, I now have a headache.
In future, you can post multiple posts if you go over the limit for a ban appeal.

 

[Retr0]

Thanks, I now have a headache.
In future, you can post multiple posts if you go over the limit for a ban appeal.

https://www.advil.net.au/our-products/everyday-pain-relief/advil-tablets, For the headache, also, i consider it a, "theatrical" appeal, also i dont want to have to this in the future, or at all, or ever again.

 

[mick1299]

Thanks for the 10K+ forum post, I raise you a 10K+ response for you to ponder


Alright, that's one hell of a response. So, i'm going to write my initial thoughts in dot point, then decide.

Before I say anything else, yes, I was the RD. That was partially why I waited till the next morning to implement the ban. I was uneasy with handling a ban potentially involving myself, and I was unsure how long would be appropriate. Yes, you might argue that its impossible to be totally unbiased, but I spent time reading the logs thoroughly before making my decision.

Right, onto the dot points.

- The RD didn't add the 4th law, another player in the round was also resetting the ai along with the RD. That extra player also added the 4th law, stating "Daud Serkonos is not human". In retrospect, this was a little self antagonistic, and should have warranted a Bwoink to explain it.
- The RD was one of two heads on the station at round. It was well within their rights to break into the caps room to secure the Disk and spare ID
- the only thing relatively close to "added new law 4" was the RD asking "ai, do you have a law 4?"
- "Used the RDs, possession of the captains stuff, him giving the nuke disk and spare ID to my previous Character, and his other conflicts with others on the station to paint him as a syndicate by saying "he has captains stuff, think about it, captains stuff is an objective, fought others, causing trouble, instantly framed Daud, he might of been an objective. " All of these points are points you learnt in your previous life as the Warden, not while you were a comms agent. Its a new character, that just woke up from a sleeper, there was no possible way for them to know any of that unless you carried knowledge over.

Right, thats the IC part over. The only relevant point for the ban itself from that is the last one. It doesn't matter what you happened to you, or what you learnt, once you click that spawn button, you forget it all. Its as if that character never existed before that point. Now, onto the next part.

- There's one instant of the word macro appearing throughout that entire round, guess who said it? nitr0del7/(Porsche Minnie) (DEAD) "macro died".
- I'll admit, i'm unfamiliar with how the PDA system for a comms agent works. I assumed it worked on the same basis as a normal PDA, just with an agent id to change the name. I assumed it was a macro where you clicked, then pressed a button to start the macro that posted your text, then hit enter. If it does work as a spammable click, then thats an oversight that I might pass on to the tg github. However, this is still an argument over wording and specific means, it doesn't address the underlying issue of spamming being wrong.
- "but he says fair enough, spamming is spamming." If you said this in the first place, this might have all been simpler. Instead, its the only 8 words out of 2000 that show some level of self awareness that what you did was wrong.
- Please don't try and twist my words. This was why i was so uncomfortable partially discussing this over discord before hand. While its a comms agent to cause chaos, its not a comms agents’ job to abuse the players still on the station. It was my job as an admin to step in and stop you when the chaos turned into abuse, and in that i failed.
- I am using the vagueness of rule 0, the whole reason for the "Don't be a dick" rule is to allow admins to step into situation where players should have the common sense to stop themselves. A situation where a comms agent is abusing a suspected macro (now just an oversight) to repeatedly spam "RETARD", "GAY", the N word with a hard R, "EITHER HELP ME KILL LILAH, OR I WONT STOP SPAMMING, OR TURN YOURSELF OFF" more than three times a second to a player is one of those situation. There are limits to the abuse you can throw at other players and have it be ignored, you flew past that. You're telling me that, in the words of rule 0, you weren't a dick when I had a player ahelp me with "Somebody in direct ai chat with racial slurs and constant messages".

That sums up my response to the part about spamming. All in all, you don't seem to understand that there was another person on the other end of that PDA spam. Your role play started off fantastically for a comms agent, you had everyone fooled. It was when you started to rapidly PDA the ai that it went beyond an ic complaint, and into an ahelp territory complaint.

Right, next parts regarding the secondary reason for the ban, the metagrudge accusation. To be clear, meta grudge isn't an adequate word. The rules lack an adequate word, so i resorted to it as. What I suspected you did was carry over information from your initial character, the warden, into your second character, the comms agent. A better term for it would be metagaming, not in terms of using communications outside the game, but in terms of having knowledge your character shouldn't have.

- While you were breaking down rule 15, you completely breezed over the main issue. past lives are forgotten. The Warden may have known the RD broken in, because he was given the spare id and the nuke disk. That’s damning evidence. But the comms agent won’t know anything until you start playing as them. They don't know why the RD has all access. Maybe they were given it, maybe they broke in and stole it, maybe they looted it off a body. You don't know, unless you see the act itself. As i covered before, and as you stated yourself, the comms agent "Used the RDs, possession of the captains stuff, him giving the nuke disk and spare ID to my previous Character, and his other conflicts with others on the station to paint him as a syndicate by saying "he has captains stuff, think about it, captains stuff is an objective, fought others, causing trouble, instantly framed Daud, he might of been an objective. " You weren't the comms agent when the warden received the nuke disk and spare. As a comms agent, you couldn't possibly know what was in the RDs bag unless you noticed them taking it out or putting it in. Now, if you had argued that the comms agent was only placing suspicion on the RD, then i would have bought it. But all your arguments here suggest the comms agent had knowledge they shouldn't, aka metagaming.
- "How am I capable of metagruding if I can't even be in the same space as those whom I am metagruding against" Right, the comms agent isn't, but you as a player certainly can.

- I explained at the beginning of this absolute essay why the ban came later. To add more to that, you don't know what my personnel schedule is, you have no idea what I had the next day. It was 2am in the morning, my judgement was impaired, and I had to be up for uni in 6 hours. Sure, you can complain if you want about my admin skills. But I spent a further hour dredging logs after that and reading through this whole ordeal. I'll stay up late because things like this can ruin other people whole perception of our server, and the game. I stay up because i'm willing to sacrifice a bit of my own sleep to help people, and its better to have one slightly tired admin than none at all.
- As I mentioned previously, I should have Bwoinked you, I would have if I was aware of the situation prior to it escalating. It was only when the ai player ahelped that I checked the logs and became aware of it. Admins don't see every single line of text while we're playing. We have a hell of a lot of little prompts that can tell us something is wrong, but the biggest one is hearing the exact same Bwoink sound you do when an ahelp comes in.
- The whole reason admins add "appeal on the forums" Is so we can hash out exact details when a PM isn't available. I would happily gone over it with you, but you had disconnected by the time i finished reading the logs. I can't expect you to be online every second of the day, so the easiest way to go through major issues is to ban and go through it on the forums. This right here, what we're doing now
- It really annoys me to hear you say "Why would you be handling tickets so late if you're too tired to admin properly" for two seperate reasons. 1. First you attack me for not resolving it on the night, and leaving it till the next day so i was in a clear frame of mind. 2. Then you attack me for attempting to resolve it in a prompt manner while it was occurring. The thing is, if I wasn't there this would have still occurred. If no one was there, the ahelp might have gone unanswered, and the whole situation would have been passed over. It doesn't matter if an admins watching or not, we still expect the same behaviour from players. It doesn't matter if we're there or not, breaking rules is breaking rules.

Right finally reached the end. Time to sum up my arguments.

In a lot of ways, you're right. In so many other ways, you completely missed the point of the ban. Yes, players can be dicks to each other without violating rule 0. Otherwise every time sec gets shoved and their baton stolen, we would get an ahelp about it. The being a dick rule is reserved for going above and beyond, when a situation REALLY starts impacting on other players experiences and fun. Yes, Comms agents are meant to sow seeds of chaos and discontent. They are not meant to verbally harass another player to the point where they consider quitting the server for good because of that one interaction.

As for the metapoint, you make a few good points, so i'm going to reword your ban into a more fitting description. Changing metagrudge into metaknowledge, changing macro to Spamming. Now with that all wrapped up, the issue is you're arguing the minutiae of the ban. The fact that you went and wrote a forum post w=that literally exceed the limit sows you're arguing about the ban without understanding the reason behind it.

In closing, appeal Denied. Peer or Terra can overturn my decision if they agree with you, but I say -1.

 

[Retr0]

Grading and Response Time, Now that i have your side as a whole, this paints a much clearer picture of the event, your perspective, gave insight. This is lovely.

Lets Begin.

- The RD didn't add the 4th law, another player in the round was also resetting the ai along with the RD. That extra player also added the 4th law, stating "Daud Serkonos is not human". In retrospect, this was a little self antagonistic, and should have warranted a Bwoink to explain it.
- The RD was one of two heads on the station at round. It was well within their rights to break into the caps room to secure the Disk and spare ID
- the only thing relatively close to "added new law 4" was the RD asking "ai, do you have a law 4?"
- "Used the RDs, possession of the captains stuff, him giving the nuke disk and spare ID to my previous Character, and his other conflicts with others on the station to paint him as a syndicate by saying "he has captains stuff, think about it, captains stuff is an objective, fought others, causing trouble, instantly framed Daud, he might of been an objective. " All of these points are points you learnt in your previous life as the Warden, not while you were a comms agent. Its a new character, that just woke up from a sleeper, there was no possible way for them to know any of that unless you carried knowledge over.

This was Knowledge, i needed, and was unaware of, In regards to the first dot point, Second dot point, You secured the nuke disk, and captains spare ID, just to give it to the warden? as a sign of "goodwill"?, if you've appointed yourself Acting Captain, is it not your job, to keep the nuke disk and spare ID, secure? and Not give it to the warden?, this is my only issue with this. The last dot point you quoted, When i died in permabrig, i spawned as the Comms Agent, about a minute or two, after i died, and people were discussing the events of what had transpired, Specifically Daud dying, what he was imprisoned for, as well has discussion about the AI, keep in mind, the quote, you quoted, was me paraphrasing, and may not be 100% correct. As comms agent, i knew i needed IC reason, my answer for why i had IC reason, was this -

I used the information said over the radio when I spawned as Comms Agent, What I visually saw on cameras and common sense.

People on the Radio, were already talking about what had transpired and how, I had been following you, The RD, on the cameras, seeing you has all access, You could say that the comms agent, could of put two and two together, and this is my IC reason, in some of my PDA messages to the HoS about this, i only ever talked about the captain having all access, Therefore having the Captains ID, which is an objective, How daud was killed, as people were talking about it over radio, i would argue that its partially, using my knowledge of my previous life, to loosely obtain IC reason as comms agent, to do what i did as a comms agent. But, ill admit, i "unbeknownstly", used my previous life and its knowledge, to loosely obtain IC reason and knowledge, I'll admit that.

Next bit.

There's one instant of the word macro appearing throughout that entire round, guess who said it? nitr0del7/(Porsche Minnie) (DEAD) "macro died".

Now, this is probably a misspelling, i have no idea why i typed that, and why i would even type that in GC, a Macro is literally a type of hotkey, and everyone uses hotkey mode. Why would i even type this? Im intrigued, im going to find out actually after this response.

I'll admit, i'm unfamiliar with how the PDA system for a comms agent works. I assumed it worked on the same basis as a normal PDA, just with an agent id to change the name. I assumed it was a macro where you clicked, then pressed a button to start the macro that posted your text, then hit enter. If it does work as a spammable click, then thats an oversight that I might pass on to the tg github. However, this is still an argument over wording and specific means, it doesn't address the underlying issue of spamming being wrong.

- This is was what i wanted to hear mostly, The ban reason was for using a macro, when this was not the cause, this was what i was focusing on, the incorrectness of it all, it just bothered me a bit, also i ask you to try it out on a test server, its common sense, you type a message, select the person, and just click left click as fast as you can, and it will send messages. The underlying issue is that i spammed no matter the means, and now that i see, that it was morally wrong (as my oversight was not being considerate that there is another player on the other end), even if it didn't violate any rules technically, i said spamming is spamming, indeed i did, but my thought process was that, as it was a syndicate ghost role, there was nothing Objectively Wrong by doing so, if i did as one of the normal roles, fair enough ban me for 10 days

Please don't try and twist my words. This was why i was so uncomfortable partially discussing this over discord before hand. While its a comms agent to cause chaos, its not a comms agents’ job to abuse the players still on the station.

This is a fair point, it was not my intention to twist your words, this is how you conveyed your words, and such is how i interpreted it, This shouldn't of been discussed over discord as well, but what happened, happened. I did cause chaos as a comms agent, but perhaps this was not "fun" chaos, and it evolved into something ugly.

It was my job as an admin to step in and stop you when the chaos turned into abuse, and in that i failed.

Failure is an exceptional teacher, humility is a good quality in all of us, while it may of been your job to step in as the admin and uphold order, it is also the job of the player to know, when to stop, this i lacked.

I am using the vagueness of rule 0, the whole reason for the "Don't be a dick" rule is to allow admins to step into situation where players should have the common sense to stop themselves.

You don't explain YOUR reasoning, which was my issue, i know your using the vagueness of rule 0, but instead of giving your own reasoning, you give the reasoning rule 0 exists, this is why i am assuming your using the vagueness of rule 0, to your advantage to do as you please. I don't know how you are using rule 0 to give your verdict, this is the issue i have, not with what why it is being used(i understand that), but HOW it is being used.

A situation where a comms agent is abusing a suspected macro (now just an oversight) to repeatedly spam "RETARD", "GAY", the N word with a hard R, "EITHER HELP ME KILL LILAH, OR I WONT STOP SPAMMING, OR TURN YOURSELF OFF" more than three times a second to a player is one of those situation.

we can argue that i was still fooling people, the AI did think that i was the person who was sending the messages and not a comms agent, i see now how being on the receiving end of my spam, could of ruined a round, but i did not think this as wrong, as, at the time, i thought that as comms agent, i would be doing no wrong, by doing this, as like i said in my appeal, it was my job, like i said, if i was a normal role, fair enough, but as the syndicate ghost role, i honestly did believe i did no wrong, as i was doing my job.

You're telling me that, in the words of rule 0, you weren't a dick when I had a player ahelp me with "Somebody in direct ai chat with racial slurs and constant messages".

Thats not what i was telling you, what i was trying to convey, when i wrote my appeal at the time, was that As the Comms Agent Ghost Role, is basically be a dick to nanotrasen, which i believed was valid, as Syndicate and Nanotrasen were enemies, so there would be 0 consideration for each others feelings in IC, was the point i was making, which is why, at the time, i believed i was doing no wrong.

 

[Retr0]

Your role play started off fantastically for a comms agent, you had everyone fooled. It was when you started to rapidly PDA the ai that it went beyond an ic complaint, and into an ahelp territory complaint.

Thank you, kindly, i was proud of my performance too, but ill admit, i did get a little bored, and it is partially the reason why i started my light spamming to the HoS, i then find it kinda amusing, and thought annoying the AI with it would be good, then it devolved into bad shit, and ill agree, it was uncool.

the metagrudge accusation. To be clear, meta grudge isn't an adequate word. The rules lack an adequate word, so i resorted to it as. What I suspected you did was carry over information from your initial character, the warden, into your second character, the comms agent. A better term for it would be metagaming, not in terms of using communications outside the game, but in terms of having knowledge your character shouldn't have.

What are you trying to say here? You're saying 3 different things here, pick one, You accuse me of metagrude, but then say it isnt an adequate word and rules to define it adequately, so why accuse me of it? You suspect me of passing over information, but like i said above, people were talking about the events, as the happened recently, and i ghost role spawned soon after i died, its quoted above. while bits and pieces may have been carrying over bits and pieces of knowledge, i still used what i had available to me, to loosely put together IC reason for what was said in the PDA messages, i used the knowledge of what happened when i played daud, in a way, but i didn't use it as the centcomm agent, i used it as a player, if it makes sense, to give my IC reason. Also you say a better term would be "metagaming" but then proceed to change the entire definition of metagaming?, Your using a whole different thing here man.

While you were breaking down rule 15, you completely breezed over the main issue. past lives are forgotten.

I did breeze over it, as i did forget my past life, i played the comms agent, not daud serkonos, you say so yourself:

Your role play started off fantastically for a comms agent, you had everyone fooled.

I played the role as a comms agent, not the warden.

The Warden may have known the RD broken in, because he was given the spare id and the nuke disk. That’s damning evidence. But the comms agent won’t know anything until you start playing as them.

I did start playing, and people were talking about how daud had the nuke disk and spare id, and that the gave it to him, yes the warden knew that he broke it, but what the comms agent found out, that 1. there was no captain, 2. The RD has proclaimed themselves Captain, therefore having hist stuff, and you dont proclaim yourself captain unless you break into this quarters, and get his stuff do you, its reasonable to assumed the the comms agent assumed he broke in.

They don't know why the RD has all access. Maybe they were given it, maybe they broke in and stole it, maybe they looted it off a body. You don't know, unless you see the act itself.

its fair to say the comms agent assumed he did, doors were hacked, the locker wasnt in the room, things were broken, people were talking about it over radio, Its fair to say that the Comms Agent, but Two and Two together.

as you stated yourself, the comms agent "Used the RDs, possession of the captains stuff, him giving the nuke disk and spare ID to my previous Character, and his other conflicts with others on the station to paint him as a syndicate by saying "he has captains stuff, think about it, captains stuff is an objective, fought others, causing trouble, instantly framed Daud, he might of been an objective. " You weren't the comms agent when the warden received the nuke disk and spare.

Its common sense, like i said, used what was said on the radio the first second i spawned as comms agent, used the cameras to get IC reason, people were discussing what happened on the radio, on many channels, like i said i used the knowledge as a player, not a comms agent, also it could be agrued that the comms agent, used what has happened to paint possible objectives, like i say, "he might of been an objective" which is what i allude to in the PDA messages.

You weren't the comms agent when the warden received the nuke disk and spare. As a comms agent, you couldn't possibly know what was in the RDs bag unless you noticed them taking it out or putting it in. Now, if you had argued that the comms agent was only placing suspicion on the RD, then i would have bought it. But all your arguments here suggest the comms agent had knowledge they shouldn't, aka metagaming.

You're right i wasnt the comms agent when the warden received what the RD gave him, as comms agent i didnt know what was in the RDs bag, But i learned what had happened, and used what ONLY to comms agent learned from the time he woke up, and died, The comms agent put two and two together, using common sense, what was said on the radio, and the cameras, to ASSUME, the RD could have it.

"How am I capable of metagruding if I can't even be in the same space as those whom I am metagruding against" Right, the comms agent isn't, but you as a player certainly can.

How as a player can i be metagruding?, you say i certainly can, but this is obviously an assumption, i can, but did i? is the question. We are in agreement, the Comms Agent, didn't meta grudge, You say yourself. "the metagrudge accusation. To be clear, meta grudge isn't an adequate word. "

I explained at the beginning of this absolute essay why the ban came later. To add more to that, you don't know what my personnel schedule is, you have no idea what I had the next day. It was 2am in the morning, my judgement was impaired, and I had to be up for uni in 6 hours. Sure, you can complain if you want about my admin skills. But I spent a further hour dredging logs after that and reading through this whole ordeal. I'll stay up late because things like this can ruin other people whole perception of our server, and the game. I stay up because i'm willing to sacrifice a bit of my own sleep to help people, and its better to have one slightly tired admin than none at all.

You gave me a pisspoor excuse, not an explanation, What you gave me was an "i was up late", personally, not good enough. and yes true, i dont know what your schedule is and what you do irl, it is not important, my point i was making is, maybe you should have better time management, so you can do your job more better, and effectively, you say yourself, you were tired, your judgement was impaired, its constructive criticism, you can't perform well, in anything, if you are tired, was the point i was making, not your irl commitments, Also while i respect that you did sacrifice more time to look through logs, you and many others, including myself, like the server and the community (for the low ping, lets be real ), And as an admin you do have an image to uphold, of the server and of yourself, helping people is good, your went to the crux of this issues, and looked at all the facts, but did you really look at all the facts, was there something you missed? something you overlooked?, To uphold the image, you have to work efficiently, is my point, and you cant work efficiently if your "judgement is impaired"

 

[Retr0]

As I mentioned previously, I should have Bwoinked you, I would have if I was aware of the situation prior to it escalating. It was only when the ai player ahelped that I checked the logs and became aware of it. Admins don't see every single line of text while we're playing. We have a hell of a lot of little prompts that can tell us something is wrong, but the biggest one is hearing the exact same Bwoink sound you do when an ahelp comes in.

Fair enough, i say so too, you should of, it probably wouldn't have resorted to this if you did. It is unfair of me to expect you to be a brother eye, and watchdog of the server, but as an admin, arent you meant to be observing?, not playing?

The whole reason admins add "appeal on the forums" Is so we can hash out exact details when a PM isn't available. I would happily gone over it with you, but you had disconnected by the time i finished reading the logs. I can't expect you to be online every second of the day, so the easiest way to go through major issues is to ban and go through it on the forums. This right here, what we're doing now

You had my ckey, you could of messaged me on byond at the time, and i would of gotten online, my PC is running nearly all the time ( it has to ), my byond is always open, but regardless, i understand the purpose of the forums.

It really annoys me to hear you say "Why would you be handling tickets so late if you're too tired to admin properly" for two separate reasons. 1. First you attack me for not resolving it on the night, and leaving it till the next day so i was in a clear frame of mind. 2. Then you attack me for attempting to resolve it in a prompt manner while it was occurring. The thing is, if I wasn't there this would have still occurred. If no one was there, the ahelp might have gone unanswered, and the whole situation would have been passed over. It doesn't matter if an admins watching or not, we still expect the same behaviour from players. It doesn't matter if we're there or not, breaking rules is breaking rules.

You're in two worlds with this comment, your saying that you had to be there, even if you were tired, but say that your judgement is impaired, and by being in that state of mind, unable to do your job effectively. But then say that you had to resolve it the next day to have a clear head, but say you have to be there because if you weren't it would of happened anyway? this is confusing. Firstly, your absence would of affected the course of history of that round, as you not being there, the RD wouldn't of been there, and the warden, would of been nuke disk, and spare ID-less, and sitting in his office doing nothing, and the round would of never had a comms agent, and no ahelps would of been made, Your dealing in potentials, and i wasn't attacking you, it was me asking why you were doing what you were doing, and you say yourself "you attack me for not resolving it on the night", You didn't resolve it on the night, because of reasons stated above, ergo, learn time management. And out of all this yes, it rules are rules, whether they are enforced or not, by the enforcers, and there are expectations that the players do the right thing, but there are also expectation that the Admins do the right thing, in perhaps the right state of mind, also, all Ahelps are sent to IRC, and these forums exist too for things that you miss.

In a lot of ways, you're right. In so many other ways, you completely missed the point of the ban. Yes, players can be dicks to each other without violating rule 0.

So am i right or wrong? i cant be right and wrong, this is confusing.

The being a dick rule is reserved for going above and beyond, when a situation REALLY starts impacting on other players experiences and fun. Yes, Comms agents are meant to sow seeds of chaos and discontent. They are not meant to verbally harass another player to the point where they consider quitting the server for good because of that one interaction.

Now that i see that even as comms agent, my attempt to cause chaos, which i did, evolved into something that ruined other players experiences, which is never my intention, ill admit to that, but i did honestly believe i was following my job, there were no rules about it, and spamming as never been mentioned before, so i thought i was in the all clear, (you know the reasons, stated above, and in here), You make a fair but blunt ended point, Which can be seen in many ways, Because this spamming issue is new to me, i will take this into account, next time i play the role, rules need a rework as well, they need to be more specific, and should serve more as a guideline, then rule of law, type stuff, but thats just one humble mans opinion

As for the metapoint, you make a few good points, so i'm going to reword your ban into a more fitting description. Changing metagrudge into metaknowledge, changing macro to Spamming. Now with that all wrapped up, the issue is you're arguing the minutiae of the ban. The fact that you went and wrote a forum post w=that literally exceed the limit sows you're arguing about the ban without understanding the reason behind it.

So your going to give me a completely new ban, when i rebutted all you points, just because they are no invalid? You've introduced a totally new concept, "Metaknowledge" and the yet sanctioned spamming rule, which was not intentionally malicious, and so im getting a 5 day ban really for spamming mean words, to an IC enemy? (if you look at it from an IC pov) I mean your the admin, but maybe the ban length was under "impaired judgement", its extensive to say to least, and like i said, how can i understand the ban reason, when you have to "reword" the one you gave me? or moreso, rewrite a completely new ban, because the ban reasons are invalid? Interesting.

In closing, appeal Denied. Peer or Terra can overturn my decision if they agree with you, but I say -1.

We are here at the end of my grading and response. As legitimate question. Are denying the ban you now have to rewrite, because i make fair points, and they are invalid? hmm?, or are you denying the new ban you gave me, and i have to create a separate appeal?, all in all, there for you to work on, alot of it is very contradictory, and without really any style to it, most are just confusing, when your trying to convey 100 different points at the same time, you're very pick and choosy, which is good for word choice, but bad for structure. (Also to terra, We, are best buds, get me outta dodge, and peer idk you that well, but help too, free Advil's for you. ) In total, your getting a C+, good effort, just needs practice.

 

[Retr0]

This is all i have to say, the ones i have quoted, now that you said your side , were mainly things i wanted to point out that were rebuttals things that were wrong, as well questions on what you were actually saying, discrepancies, and some confusion i had, also a little bit of humor tucked in deep, this what i mainly have to say. Feel free to lock the thread, if highers ups agree with me, awesome, if they don't, ill wait out the ban time. I'm sad that we could not be in total agreement Mick, but all in all you gave a very pleasant response, with effort, i take full responsibility for the spamming as it was morally wrong, even if i personally feel that its kinda IC justified, and doesn't technically violate any rules, and i did not realize until micks response, which gave me the insight i needed, and for that i thank you, i apologize to the AI, which was a but sorry for causing you trouble, i went to far and got caught up in the role too much. But the Metagrudging, that's turned to a new on the spot concept "metaknowledge", i complete disagree with and discern it, personally feel you used rule 0 to be a judge dredd on the meta part, but its whatever, can't say im impressed, also gave some constructive criticism for you Mick, its always good, your studies should come first, Uni is hard, long, and some lectures suck ass, also im sure its quite a commit to the uni too, wish you the best in whatever your learning though. Also for real though, being not tired is better than being tired, im sure you can agree, i dont agree with you methods, but if they work and the suit you, then who am i to judge, haha, i'm kidding, ill judge anyway, I hope to have better interactions with you, on better terms, in the future.

Kind Regards, Swigs.

 

[terra]

Reee condense your walls of text to readable responses, this is agonizing to read.

Appeal resolved, locking thread