Bailex - Metagaming/Being a Dick.

[Lacran.]

Your Byond name: Lacran
Your character name: John Tegridy
Their Byond name (if known): Bailed
Their character name: Saki Yoshida
Time and date: 12:30am 1/10/2020 (nz)
Round ID: 5279
Logs and/or screenshots:

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Description of the events that occurred:
Saki spent most of the round trying to stop security and crewmembers from dealing with a potential ling, they stopped their cremation, hid them in during a manhunt, dragged them off to maint trying to free them, tried to sabotage the investigation by making fake cbz and dragged them away from sec after they had learnt how cbz works confirmed they were a ling and hid them in the borg recharger.

I wasn't personally there for the majority of these actions and they were actually brought to my attention after the round after talking with them on discord. After people started weighing in on their behavior they tried to use things like Stockholm syndrome and self preservation as motivations, which I don't buy.

Why you believe they should be punished:

Dedicating your round to helping someone's player who you suspect and later know to be a changeling would require a really good reason to do so. If they want to use friendship as their reason to assist a ling all game they need to have a reason to be assisting that ling on that round not because they have a prior friendship on other rounds, not only is Doris supposed to be treated differently as an antag but as a ling its not even the real Doris, but something that absorbed Doris.

Not only is dedicating your round to helping an antag a typically shitty thing to do, but to try to stop not only validhunters, but security from dealing with the antag when they're trying to be fair is going against the entire purpose of sec as a role. Sec aren't going to enjoy their rounds when random assistants try to sabotage them, it doesn't make players want to get into the role, and it is the kind of behavior that encourages shitsec.

Bailex's motivations would need to be solid and they're not, at best they did it because they wanted the ling to have fun, the issue I'm taking with it is players deciding to help a specific player purely because they're familiar is just plain metafriending. I wouldn't normally jump to metagaming so quickly but Bailex is already known for having persistent friendships resulting in beneficial treatment, and I've personally dealt with Bailex not being able to separate OOC from IC which can be viewed in their notes.

If you want to spend your round helping a particular player who's an antag, you should have a good reason, otherwise you're probably being a dick.

 

[TheFakeElon]

Disclaimer: I am involved, so take this as a perspective, not a ruling

I would also like to say that we're not a metagang, which you seem to imply. If you want some evidence! I table slammed them for 10 minutes near the start of the round because they were following me, My plan was to absorb them but they managed to shout out over the radio before I could cut cams. Helping antags isn't against the rules unless said person breaks any other rules themselves. For example, if saki started beating people who touched me, then that would be self antag and they'd be punished accordingly.

The ""worse"" thing saki did that round was hiding me in the borg charger, which is not against the rules



you basically helped me more that round than saki btw

 

[TheFakeElon]

It's kind of cringe helping antags if you're security, but it's not against our rules

 

[TheFakeElon]

reminder that I'm totally biased.

 

[Nus127]

Haha, salt shaker goes psh psh

 

[terra]

ughghghghghghhg
this is difficult. I observed the whole round, and saw all this happen.
I'm really torn. On the one hand, TheFakeElon is correct in that we don't have any rules/rulings against non-antags helping antags provided they don't break the rules.
So what this comes down to is rule 0 really.
I'm gonna sleep on this and come back to it tomorrow.

 

[Jelly]

I don't know if Saki witnessed any ling fuckery, but I personally treat all antags as if they were only framed, if they tell me so.

Coincidentally, Elon can maybe confirm he has told me that he "isn't actually a terrorist" multiple times, leading to multiple tag-teams.

 

[TheFakeElon]

I never used any ling powers in front of Saki until the very end of the shift where I thanked them for saving me while disguised as some lizard man. They were under the impression I was not a ling when they saved me from the crematorium because I didn't revive myself.

 

[Lacran.]

Helping antags isn't against the rules unless said person breaks any other rules themselves.

you basically helped me more that round than saki btw

It's kind of cringe helping antags if you're security, but it's not against our rules

Its not that saki helped an antag, its that Saki helped an antag because they're a friend round-to-round. They helped you when they suspected you were a ling, and even when it was proven you were a ling they made trying to deal with you as tedious as possible without violating self antagging, which can still violate don't be a dick.

Trying to treat an honest mistake I made as HoS with the CBZ, which I did my best to rectify, with saki's behaviour isn't you being biased, that goes way beyond a bias.

I don't know if Saki witnessed any ling fuckery, but I personally treat all antags as if they were only framed, if they tell me so.

Saki actively tried to make fake CBZ to stop Oscar Kavari from testing Doris, if they believed doris was framed for being a ling, they wouldn't have an issue letting them be tested.

They were under the impression I was not a ling when they saved me from the crematorium because I didn't revive myself.

Yes, but they still helped you when they suspected/knew you were a ling, they also outright told us in medbay that you had told them you were a ling when confronted about the fake CBZ they were making.

They thought you were a ling, and were helping you, for no real motivation other than metafriending.

 

[Melvyn bailey]

and yet again i need to say this again, i didn't ruin your round by stopping you from catching an antag, and i'd like to keep a note for the record that in that particular round the most noteworthy thing i did was sacrifice people to the catsurgeon knowing it would heal them, stopping you from murdering doris was only because i had disagreed with your extremely heavy-handed methods and decided it would be funny to watch you rage after round that a single assistant pushed the ling to a greentext

 

[Lacran.]

i had disagreed with your extremely heavy-handed methods and decided it would be funny to watch you rage after round that a single assistant pushed the ling to a greentext

On discord you were saying it was due to stockholm syndrome and self preservation, but now you're saying you helped an antag due to an issue with me? I assumed you wanted to help a friend OOC, which is against the rules but not as much of a dick move as "I helped an antag because I wanted to make a specific security player angry OOC"

What are the extremely heavy handed methods you're talking about? Can you give an example?

 

[Melvyn bailey]

extremely heavy-handed methods

i just wanted to help an antag greentext, its not like it was you who got gunned down cough cough either

 

[TheFakeElon]

Trying to treat an honest mistake I made as HoS with the CBZ, which I did my best to rectify, with saki's behaviour isn't you being biased, that goes way beyond a bias.

calm down, I was joking :/

 

[TheFakeElon]

I don't metafriend or metagang with saki. You also managed to ignore everything else I mentioned in my response.

 

[Lacran.]

I don't think helping an antag in self interest, or helping an antag once is an issue at all, but making a consistent effort all round to help the same person who is an antag regardless of the situation and context is a problem and probably in violation of one of two rulebreaks.

 

[Melvyn bailey]

i didn't murderbone, i didn't powergame, i didn't metagame, i wasn't incompetent and i didn't go out of my way to ruin anyone's round.
what rule have i broken lacran, allowing an antag to greentext is not against the rules and provides more dynamic gameplay, its fun to not die by the hands of an antag because they owe you a favour.

 

[Lacran.]

what rule have i broken lacran, allowing an antag to greentext is not against the rules and provides more dynamic gameplay, its fun to not die by the hands of an antag because they owe you a favour.

I think I've covered everything as well as could be expected, but I'll try to say this directly and simply:

Dealing with antags and criminals is Sec's job, spending an entire round trying to stop them from doing the job they signed up to do is you trying to ruin their round, this would apply to trying to sabotage anyone else's role aswell. You were being a dick.

You have a record with metagaming already, deciding to spend an entire round helping Elon greentext doesn't make much sense until you look at things from an OOC perspective, then it starts to make a lot more sense. Metafriending is the motivation that makes the most sense for your behavior, nothing else comes close.

I don't think there's anything more to be said on this, so I'm happy to just wait for Terra's say.

 

[TheFakeElon]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I can't really say what Saki's motivations were, but metafriend implies it's the will of both parties.

 

[Nus127]

>Someone is making sec’s job harder, knowing exactly who that person is

>Doesn’t do their job to just arrest the person making it harder for you to catch your antag

Seriously you could have just arrested saki for disrupting security’s job.
This incident doesn’t seem to be an example of a rule break, The claiming of Metafriend is stupidly hard to figure out as motives are hard to figure out.

 

[Lacran.]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I can't really say what Saki's motivations were, but metafriend implies it's the will of both parties.

I didn't have any issue with your conduct, when I'm talking about metafriending in this instance I just mean unreasonable ingame favoritism based on out of round opinions.

Seriously you could have just arrested saki for disrupting security’s job.

It wasn't a matter of me not deciding to arrest Saki, I'm not even sure how this is your takeaway.

The issue regarding rulebreaks is the motivation behind the behaviour, and if this behaviour were to continue or be more widespread how it would be viewed. I don't think having people spending their rounds helping antags on a whim and doing nothing else would be very enjoyable for others, this is what Saki did.